For our 20th season, we are focusing on your toolbox. We’re going to be thinking about tools in terms of the lenses that we use to approach a story. We’re going to focus on the four lenses of: who, where, when, and why (don’t worry– what and how will be looked at in a later season, since they’re more about execution and less about lenses.) Our hosts talk about the lenses they’re adopting as they look towards 2025. 

At the end of this season, we’re going to take all these lenses and apply them to one work: All the Birds in the Sky by Charlie Jane Anders. 

A note: we will now only have “thing of the week” occasionally, and not regularly! 

Homework: Make a list of the tools you already have in your toolbox. Now, as an intention, think of an area that you want a tool for. Over the course of this year, we’re going to try to help you find that tool. 

Credits: Your hosts for this episode were Mary Robinette Kowal, Dan Wells, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, and Howard Tayler. It was produced by Emma Reynolds, recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.

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Transcript

As transcribed by Mike Barker

Key Points: Tools, not rules. Lenses. Who, where, when, why. What and how, execution, later! Back cover copy: Who, conflict, setting, hook. Who am I as a writer? Not resolutions, but questions and intentions! Metaphors! Tools in writing as spices in cooking. I never metaphor I didn’t like. 

[Season 20, Episode 01]

[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.

[Season 20, Episode 01]

[DongWon] This is Writing Excuses.

[Mary Robinette] Welcome to 2025!

[DongWon] I’m DongWon.

[Mary Robinette] I’m Mary Robinette.

[Dan] I’m Dan.

[Erin] I’m Erin.

[Howard] And I’m Howard.

[Mary Robinette] It’s a whole New Year. So we have an exciting season prepared for you. This season is going to be very focused on your toolbox. One of the things we’ve been saying for a couple of years is that it’s about the tools, not the rules. So we want to make sure that you have a really nice set of tools to use this year. We’re going to be looking at a couple of specific things. We’re going to be thinking about these tools in terms of the lenses that we use to approach a story. So this season, you’re going to be looking at questions of who, where when, and why.

[Howard] Where’s what?

[Mary Robinette] What and how are going to be things we look at in a later season, because we’re going to be looking at lenses this time, and what and how are more about the execution. So while the lens does affect the way you use things, this is what we’re going to be focusing on.

[DongWon] The execution comes at the end.

[Mary Robinette] The execution… Yes.

[Laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Dum dum dum. Then, I’ve got some other exciting stuff that I’m going to tell you about when we get to the end of this episode for things to look forward to for later in the season. But, right now, I wanted to say, since we’re at the beginning of 2025, and this is our twentieth season, which is…

[Dan] Yay!

[Mary Robinette] Wild. We want to talk a little bit about the lenses that we’re using in the way we are thinking about the next year coming up for us all individually.

[Erin] It’s funny, I really… So, I love the… Just to get a little bit back to, like, the who, not what, where, when, why, and how. This is a framework that I love to think about when I think about writing. Because it’s something that lets you make sure that you’re not missing any aspect of writing. Like, who are the people in your story? What is the way… Like, what is happening? Where and when is that going on? Why are you even telling this story? And how are you going to get it across? But I also think that you can use that in your actual life. Like, who are the people that you want to, like, be a part of your year? What are the activities that we want to be doing? Like, where and when… Like, are there places that you want to go, are there perspectives from the past or the future that you want to bring into your life? Then, how are you going to get there? So, I don’t know if I have an answer to it, but it just occurred to me that, like, maybe I should be thinking about the who, what, where, when, why, and how of my own life.

[DongWon] Yeah. I really love that. I mean, in the… In 2024, I relocated, I moved across the country, and so, I found myself in a new location. And thinking of the who is like a very important question for me right now as I’m looking to build a new community. Right? Find new friends and find a way to start developing roots in this new location as I look towards the future and try to figure out what’s next for me.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I also had a big move in 2024, that was not entirely an expected move. We had to move to help with some family stuff. For me, one of the things that is really exciting is also thinking about the why of things. Sometimes the why is not a thing that is in your control. This is a thing that a lot of times, as writers, we let… The why can be both empowering and also a barrier. So, for me, it’s like, okay, so I’ve… The why has happened. What or who can I find now? How can I embody the place that I’m in, in my writing career, and all of these other aspects?

[Howard] Three years, I’ve had this formula for writing back cover copy. Which is character, conflict, setting, and hook. And I just realized that those mapped very cleanly onto who, who’s the character, conflict, character when a thing happens, where is it happening is the setting, and hook is why should you buy this book.

[Laughter]

[Howard] It maps perfectly. It’s not that mapping it, and this I think reflects right into why we play with these tools instead of rules… Maps perfectly into helping me rethink my code for back cover copy. Because, especially with hook, it’s not the why of the story, it’s the why of the decision to get the reader to buy the book. Because that’s what back cover copy is for. So, by applying another layer of words to a tool that I thought I already understood, I actually understand it better and am better prepared to apply it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I’m really actually extremely grateful to you for saying that, because I’ve been trying to figure out how to explain hooks to people forever. I mean, why do we care, why do we want to invest, is like, oh! That is way more actionable than…

[Howard] Yeah, the word hook…

[DongWon] I like that it’s a why in terms of the story, too. It’s why is this story. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Like, the hook should be the thing that is motivating and pulling you into the story, both in terms of your relationship to the reader, but in the story itself, too.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] I think. So…

[Erin] Something that I’m thinking about which takes it away from this conversation and back to me…

[Laughter]

[Erin] Is…

[Dan] [garbled]

[Erin] No, I’ve been thinking a lot, like, just to be, like, completely real, I… What I’m thinking about currently is who am I as a writer. I write a lot of different things, I write games, I write short fiction, I write in different genres, in different… I write scripts sometimes. And it’s like, who am I? Because that’s when, for me, the lens comes into play. When I am writing, what am I focusing on? Am I focusing on my own work, my focusing on another people’s IP? Like, in my focusing on which… Why? Because they pay me? Love you all.

[Laughter]

[Erin] But, really, thinking about that and thinking maybe the beginning of the year is like who are you as a writer?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because I think you can sometimes get into a kind of, like, a snowball rolling downhill where you’re just dealing action after action…

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because it’s the action in front of you.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Erin] But you’re not actually thinking about, like, why am I taking this action as opposed to a different course?

[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, beginning of the year is a time that everyone’s talking about New Year’s resolutions. Right? We’re all thinking about, like, what do we want to change for this year? What are our goals for this year? But what I love about this approach of tools, not rules, is it’s stepping away from resolutions, which I always struggle with because then it’s like, oh, if I didn’t go to the gym seven days a week by the end of January, then I’ve failed at life, and now I feel terrible. But, like, instead of thinking about what are the specific concrete goals, thinking about these questions in terms of who am I, reflecting on that, how do I want to be in the world, how do I want to engage in my creative practice? And then, when… What are my expectations for this year in a certain way? And so shifting away from, like, concrete resolutions that you have to stick to to practices and tools, I think, is a really lovely way to think about it.

[Mary Robinette] That gets back to that Dolly Parton quote that you love so much, figure out who you want… Who you…

[DongWon] Figure out what you’re good at, and then do it on purpose.

[Mary Robinette] Okay.

[DongWon] Figure out who you are, and then do it on purpose. That’s what it is.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Figure out who you are, and then do it on purpose.

[Yeah]

[Mary Robinette] Last year, I set… I didn’t set a resolution, I set an intention, which was… I picked a word. Stability. Which…

[Laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Very laughable very fast.

[DongWon] How’s that worked out for you?

[Laughter] [garbled]

[Mary Robinette] But what was interesting was that within the chaos that was happening, when I was offered a choice, which I… It was like, how can I find stability within this?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Thing that is happening? That allowed me to find stability even though last year was fairly chaotic. And I think this is also true, like, when you’re thinking about your writing. I talk a lot with students about thinking about what is the intention behind this, what is the why, who are you telling the story for, and thinking about that as a… Is just a word. Sometimes I have people who will just write down what is the emotion you want people to leave the story with? They can have different emotions during the story, but what is that… Where do we linger when we get to the end?

[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, I think, approaching the year with intention, approaching your work with intention, all are incredibly important. And then, like, having that thing to focus on in terms of, like, where are you trying to get people to, where are you trying to get yourself to? Right? I think all that can be really, really important things to be bringing in as you’re looking down the road at this year.

[Mary Robinette] So, why don’t we take a little break. You all can listen to our lovely sponsors while you also think about what and who you want to be.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Take a little bit of thinking or intention, and we’re going to talk to you more.

[Mary Robinette] Hey, friends. The 2025 retreat registration is open. We have two amazing writing retreats coming up and we cordially invite you to enroll in them. For those of you who sign up before January 12, 2025… How is that even a real date? We’re off… [Background noise… Friend?] As you can probably hear, my cat says we’ve got a special treat for our friends. We are offering a little something special to sweeten the pot. You’ll be able to join several of my fellow Writing Excuses hosts and me on a Zoom earlybird meet and greet call to chit chat, meet fellow writers, ask questions, get even more excited about Writing Excuses retreats. To qualify to join the earlybird meet and greet, all you need to do is register to join a Writing Excuses retreat. Either our Regenerate Retreat in June or our annual cruise in September 2025. Just register by January 12. Learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.

[DongWon] Heading into the new year, we’re all thinking about what our intentions and goals are. It’s hard not only to set your targets, but to live up to them. Especially as writers and creative’s in a world that doesn’t always seem eager to support you financially. That’s why building your financial literacy and starting to work towards a stable financial base is an important aspect of developing your writing career. We talk a lot about the creative tools you need, but peace of mind about your bottom line will give you the space to pursue your goals and develop the career that you want. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing, so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids, and your retirement. You don’t need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don’t need to be rich. Acorns let you invest with the spare money you’ve got right now. You can start with five dollars or even just your spare change. Head to acorns.com/WX or download the acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. [Garbled inaudible]

[Mary Robinette] So, I said that we were going to be talking to you about some other additional exciting things. We’ve been talking about setting intentions. We’ve been telling you a little bit about this idea of the toolbox. I want to talk to you also about another thing that we’re going to be doing deeper in the season. That is, we’re going to do another deep dive. So, last season, we picked five works and we broke them apart looking at different aspects of a toolbox. This season, we’re going to be talking to you about toolbox all year, and then at the end of the year, we’re going to apply all of the tools we’ve talked to you about to a single work. That work is All the Birds in the Sky by Charlie Jane Anders. I want us to talk a little bit about why we are picking… Not just… We don’t have to talk about, like, why is it All the Birds in the Sky, but why are we picking a single work to bring the lenses to?

[DongWon] When I was an undergrad, I was an English major, and one of the most useful classes I took was a class on Literary Theory, on Critical Theory. Which was very dense and very difficult, but I enjoyed it very much. One of the things I took away from it was we were moving through all these different modes of analysis, about post structural or gender studies or critical theory and all these different ways, and what was so helpful to me was understanding that each one of these was a different lens through which I could examine this work and take away different things from my reading and understanding of the work. So why was… It wasn’t necessarily that I felt a need to attach to one particular school of thought, of, oh, we need to think about this in terms of powers and economics, we need to think about this in terms of gender, or whatever it is, or language. All those things were useful, and in using, in picking and choosing different lines of approach, was giving me a more holistic understanding of the text. And figuring out what I was taking away from that text that made it meaningful to me. Right? So, obviously, we’re not applying critical theory here, but as we’re approaching using these lenses, being able to take a single text and kind of through parallax, show you all these different perspectives on it, hopefully, that’ll give a really complete picture of, like, ways that you can think about your craft, ways that you can think about your intention, and how to manifest that on the page.

[Howard] We’re going to be talking about the metaphors, as well, metaphors for our tools. And I just arrived at the perfect lens metaphor for this exact thing, because I recently went to the optometrist. And there’s this part at the optometrist where you’re looking at the picture or the words or whatever, and there flipping the little lenses in front of you, and they’re saying, okay, which is better? Three or four? Three or four? Four or five? Four or five? Imagine them doing that where between three and four, they switched the picture. No! That’s not how you develop your lens. That’s how you get a headache and get confused. By focusing on one book… Sorry to use the word focus in conjunction with lens, but by focusing…

[Dan] No you’re not.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] I… It over burdens the domain a little bit. But, by focusing on just one book, we will get a sense not only for how each individual tool works, but also for how the tools work differently. How the who is different from the where is different from the when.

[Mary Robinette] It also lets us see the places where there is a convergence. One of the things that I enjoy doing, because I am a nerd, is sometimes taking a piece of text and highlighting… Going through and saying, okay, let me take a look at all of the places where the author is using physicality. Now, let me go through and look at all of the places where the author is using emotion. Let me look at the places where the author is using focus. Often, the same line will get highlighted more than once. This is one of the things that we can do when… We kept talking about this in between episodes last season, that some of the books… Like, oh, we could have also used this book to talk about structure. We could have also use this book to talk about voice. So, taking one book that has a bunch of things going on in it, allows us to say, look, you can use all of these tools at the… I talk about layering a lot, and seeing all of these tools being used in a single work, I think it’s going to give us some great opportunities for you.

[Erin] I also think it avoids… Or hopefully it avoids… One of my biggest fears as a teacher, which is that you give people a lot of tools and they feel very overwhelmed. I almost feel like it’s like somebody was like I really want to make a great chicken soup, and asked a lot of people, like, how should I season it? And one person’s like, aw, man you gotta add turmeric. It’s great, and it does cool things. It makes your chicken soup yellow. Somebody else is like, make sure you get salt in their. Someone’s like, but it’s got to be spicy. What about pepper? All those people could be right, like. Eventually, you could end up with an entire spice cabinet full of cool spices that would make your chicken soup better. But if you put all of those spices in one chicken soup, it’s a disaster. Because you don’t know, like, okay, for this situation, or, like, this is the flavor profile I’m looking for at this moment, I should use these six spices. Oh, no, I’m in a different situation, let me use these for. So I think that, like, sometimes I always feel like just a person throwing spices at students…

[Laughter]

[Erin] And saying, like, hey, use this. And, like, not really telling them, okay, here’s how we can actually combine them in interesting ways, and here’s places where this one might work and this other one might not.

[DongWon] We can talk all we want about how turmeric is delicious and used in these cases. But until you taste a dish that has turmeric in it, you’ll never understand exactly how to apply it. Right? So what we want to do is not just tell you here’s the recipe, but also, let’s take a look at the final dish. Let’s all enjoy that together and then unpack a little bit why it works.

[Howard] I really love looking at food as a writing metaphor. We should do an episode…

[Laughter]

[Howard] We could do an episode that does that.

[DongWon] Oh, interesting. You like metaphors? Do we like metaphors here?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah. In fact, in our next episode, we’re going to be talking about writing metaphors just a little bit.

[Erin] I never met a four I didn’t like.

[Howard] Oh, my gosh.

[Mary Robinette] Erin. You are sitting next to the door. I will point that out.

[Laughter]

[Howard] [garbled and we have a door]

[DongWon] [garbled airlock 25]

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] So, I do… Since I am of the cast, and I am one of us that has read all of All of the Birds in the Sky by Charlie Jane Anders, I just want to tell you why I suggested this book in particular. It uses more than one POV. The characters start out very young and they age through the course of the book. So you get to see the different lens of… That age brings to a characters interaction with things. It is both science fiction and fantasy. It’s basically two kids, they both start as the kind of prototypical protagonists of ah, yes, the tiny genius who discovers this, and the other one is ah, yes, the tiny magical gifted girl. And then their stories meet and intersect in ways that are incredibly delicious. It also has a very strong voice, it’s very voice-y. But that voice changes through the course of the story, because the characters change through the course of the story, and it’s also a beautiful, harmonious whole. It goes places you do not expect it to go. I loved it to bits. So I pitched it to everyone as we should use this one, it does all the things. It is All the Birds in the Sky. So, get ready. We’re going to be doing that deep into this year, but you can start reading it at any point. We’ll give you warning, but it is going to be all spoiler all the time when we get to those. So, I just want to wrap us up before we get to homework by having each of the hosts tell us a tiny bit about an intention that you have for the coming year.

[Dan] Well, one that I am working on is I am trying to focus more on character as I write the who. I have been the story structure guy for such a long time that I worry that I’m falling into ruts. So I’m trying to change the way that I write, just to shake things up.

[Mary Robinette] I am, in 2025, as we are recording this, which for transparency, we’re recording in 24. I’m going to be out from contract for the first time since I sold Shades of Milk and Honey. So my goal this year is to write a book that’s just for me.

[DongWon] I love that. Kind of on a little bit of a parallel mode, for me, it’s looking at 2024, like I said, I’ve relocated, I’m kind of in a new location and kind of stepping back and looking at my career, I’m very lucky that my career is, like, it feels like it’s in a very solid place right now. I have a place where I have certain things that have worked really well, and kind of feels like I have a foundation that I can make a couple new moves. So, looking at, in 2025, what areas, in terms of my role as an agent, that I want to move into and try to take on some new projects and consider some new things. So it’s been a real period of building and growing and then, like, trying to, like, stabilize the past few years, was me like really trying to like firm things up a little bit, so I have a little bit more of a foundation to build on, and feel like it’s time for some new moves.

[Howard] You should talk to Mary Robinette about choosing stability as a word.

[Laughter]

[DongWon] We’re moving, so we really need to grow. That’s what it is.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, yeah.

[Erin] Ooo.

[Howard] There was this discussion online a few days before we recorded this episode about what it takes to be a web cartoonist. I expressed a long, and I think, very profound opinion about that. Which is, basically, you create a comic and you put it on the Internet. Boom! Done. What does a writer do? They write. Boom, you’re a writer. Painter? You paint. Web cartoonist? Make a cartoon and put it on the web. I’ve been a web cartoonist for 20 plus years except… I’m not doing that now. I’m… So this whole… The idea of a resolution being not what you’re going to do, but who you’re going to be? I am currently at a loss. So, rather than resolving on who I’m going to be, I’m going to resolve on what I’m going to look for. What I’m going to look for is an answer to that question, because I need to hurry up and find it.

[Erin] I think, for me, I work a lot, as we know, and so I think that I want to embrace play as an intention for 2025. And really… And I think part of answering that question about who I am as a writer is playing a little more, in all the different spaces that I enjoy, and trying to figure out what, like, brings me the most joy, and then go from there, and the work will follow.

[Garbled]

[Mary Robinette] This is so good.

[Mary Robinette] So, the homework that I have for you, dear listeners. We’re going to be talking about tools this year, and I want you to make a list of the tools that you already have in your toolbox. Then, as an intention, I want you to think about an area that you want a tool for. Then, over the course of this year, we’re going to try to help you find that tool.

[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You’re out of excuses. Now go write.