20.18: LIVE: The Art of Teaching
This episode was recorded live at our 2024 Writing Excuses Cruise. (Did you know that we host a writing retreat on a cruise every year!?! You can learn more at https://writingexcuses.com/retreats/)
While on a boat in Mexico, Erin Roberts was joined by Marshall Carr—our incredible recording engineer who is also a teacher during the school year— and author Mark Oshiro—who also teaches both kids and adults! For those who don’t know, our host Erin is a Creative Writing professor at UT Austin.
We wanted to record an episode with these three educators to give them a platform to talk about the art—and complexity and passion—of teaching. They discussed how they came to teaching, what they get from teaching as a writer, and why they continue to teach.
Thing of the Week: All This and More by Peng Shepherd
Homework: This homework is from Marshall! If you’re considering teaching, think of something you’re passionate about (it doesn’t have to be writing). Then, create a lesson for that thing that would work for your younger self.
P.S. Want to come write with us in 2025?! Our retreat registration is open, and we are starting to fill up! We are going to unlock our creative processes in Minnesota and explore Story Refinement as we cruise down the Mexican Riviera! Learn more here.
Credits: Your hosts for this episode were Mark Oshiro, Marshall Carr, and Erin Roberts. It was produced by Emma Reynolds, recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.
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Transcript
Key points: Teaching as a writer forces you to think through your process and what you know. Also, how do you communicate that to someone else? It helps you be more creative and challenges you. How do you get it across? Start with humility. Examples! Difference between workshops, retreats, school visits, and regular classes? Punchy, big points, not minutia. Opted in, or apathetic? 8000 jokes! Be flexible. Safe creative space. Lovely ugly alien babies. Treat them as equals. Take them seriously. Advice if you are thinking about getting into teaching? Think about a teacher who created a safe space and challenged you that you remember, and put yourself in their place. Is this something you want to do? Be enthusiastic about the subject.
[Transcriptionist apology: I suspect I may have confused Marshall and Mark at some points.]
[Season 20, Episode 18]
[Mary Robinette] Hey, guess what? The 2025 Writing Excuses Cruise is over 50% sold out. During this week-long masterclass, I’m going to be leading writers like yourself through a series of workshops designed to give you the tools to take your writing to the next level. Space is limited, but there is still time to secure your spot. We’re going to be sailing out of Los Angeles from September 18th through 26. Regardless of where you are in your writing journey, this event is your opportunity to learn new skills while exploring the beautiful Mexican Riviera. Whether you’re revising a story, reworking a character arc, or revitalizing your plot, you’ll leave more confident in your current story and bolstered by a new set of friends. Join us on board at writingexcuses.com/retreats.
[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
[Season 20, Episode 18]
[Marshall] This is Writing Excuses.
[Erin] The Art of Teaching.
[Marshall] I’m Marshall.
[Erin] I’m Erin.
[Mark] And I’m Mark.
[Erin] And we are here on the Navigator of the Seas. This is another one of our recorded on the cruise episodes in front of a live audience. Live audience makes a noise.
[Whoo Applause]
[Erin] Amazing. They’re real. Or good sound effects. We are going to be talking today about teaching, which is perfect for this cruise, because we’ve all been teaching the whole week, and wanted to talk about all the different ways you can come to teaching, and what teaching means and how it can help your writing, and all that jazz. But to start, we should probably actually say what kind of things we teach and how we came to it. So, Mark, remind us who you are and what you teach?
[Mark] Hello, Writing Excuses. I’m Mark Oshiro, the author of many young adult and middle grade novels. And I feel very lucky that I have taught more times than I can count over the years. Primarily to young adults and middle grade students, though I have taught at a few adult workshops. My preference, no offense, Writing Excuses, is teaching to kids because I think about how much I wish that… Some of the people in this audience are very horrified when I say that, by the way. But I prefer, because I am so lucky that I had adults in my life when I was in high school who fostered my love of writing, and I want to show them the possibility that not only can you write and do it for a living, but that you can be a big ass weirdo and not have to edit yourself and be yourself and still be a creative person.
[Erin] What about you, Marshall?
[Marshall] I second the big ass weirdo thing. I’m… I call myself out all the time when I’m teaching kids, because it’s just… I’m just being weird.
[Mark] Yeah.
[Marshall] And it’s fun. But I got into teaching 17 years ago. I teach high school for the last 15 years. I’ve taught middle school. I was a sub for middle school for a long time, and I kind of decided, I don’t know, a little later in life, like I always kind of wanted to teach, or know I could teach, and then I just went and got my credential and have been doing it for a long time now.
[Erin] Nice.
[Marshall] Like, a long time, it feels like.
[Erin] So, I am probably then the newest person to teaching. So, I… My father is a teacher, and so I feel like I come by it honestly. But I mostly teach college students. So I love that we actually have, like, a wide range of folks, and teach adults as well, as we do here on the cruise. But I teach at University of Texas at Austin, and I teach creative writing there, and have a blast. And I love students in college, I think because it feels like there right on the brink of kind of figuring out who they are, and creativity is a great way to do that. And writing can be an amazing outlet, whether the person wants to go on and become a best-selling author or whether they are an engineering major who just does this because it’s something that they love and they want to put time into it.
[Erin] So, I’m curious, all that being said about how amazing we all are, what you think you get out of teaching as a writer?
[Mark] I actually think the primary thing I get out of it is actually forcing me to think about my process and what I do actually know. And I remember the first time I got asked to teach, I was like, “What? I’ve only had…” At that point, I think I’d only had two books out and I was like, “That’s not enough.” That’s not enough knowledge, that’s not enough experience. Which was wrong, because I did actually know a lot of things about writing. But, first of all, it forced me to stop and think, well, what do I know? What is knowledge that I… Or wisdom, I can impart on another person? And even throughout the years, even what I’ve taught was new, I’ve never taught that specific lecture ever in my life. And it forced me to sit and think about I taught voice and how I use it to guide my story. So I love that it makes me have this very introspective deep dive first and think about my process, what it is that inspires me and motivates me. And then the second half of it was, well, how do I communicate that to someone else who doesn’t know me, is often meeting me for the first time, and they have no way in and has never read anything that I’ve written. So how do I communicate that to someone else, and communicate it in a way that is both entertaining and engaging, but, hopefully, that they take something away from it? I love teaching that just causes a reframe and allows you to just, oh, this thing I’m doing, I now have this chance to think about it a little bit differently.
[Marshall] I never told… I never said what I teach. I teach English, I’ve taught Digital Media for a bit, and now I have a creative writing class for the first time. I feel like just the actual what I’m going to do, like, in front of these kids, each day, is… Helps me be more creative and it challenges me. And I really do… I really like seeing what kids can create and how they can challenge themselves, even though they really hate English class, most of them, and they don’t want to read, they don’t want to write, they don’t want to be there. And I say, okay, that’s fair, but… I don’t know, let’s talk about movies for a little bit and write something. And share stories. That’s my favorite part of teaching is getting to tell stories and hearing their stories. Yeah. So, I get out of it… And then, when I come back to the page, hopefully, theoretically, I am more creative. But usually, I’m very tired.
[Erin] Yeah. Teaching can take it out of you. It’s very… Like, there is a perform… There is an aspect of performance. Like, some of teaching is at about actually making sure the thing lands. Like, you can be the best expert in the world on something, and actually quite horrible at teaching it, because you don’t know how to, like, get somebody who’s not at your level of expertise up to where you are. Like, I think, like many people have that experience of having a teacher where you’re like, I wish I understood what was happening and I’m not quite there. And we all try not to be that teacher. Whether or not we succeed… Ask the students.
[Erin] But I’m curious, like, some of what y’all are talking about, just like unpacking all the parts of that process. So, like, how do you think about, like, how you convey something well, like, how do you teach people who are, like, not really there, how do you figure out how to get something across in a way that actually, like, works for the person that you’re talking to?
[Mark] I mean, primarily it was messing up. Like, doing my early lectures, my early talks, and having those moments… The personality changing moments of silence where you’re like, oh, this didn’t connect, this didn’t land. This joke is unnecessary. So, I have learned from having those moments and accepting, like, okay, that was embarrassing. That sucked. But it’s like, oh, now I know that I can do something different. So I do something, actually, at the beginning of all of my lectures, in whatever form. If I’m teaching multiple times over a week or if I’ve done some short residencies before, which is… I know personally that if I’m just being taught rules, these are the rules, don’t break them. I’m out. I don’t do well with that kind of where… It feels very top-down. I know these things, these are the way to do it, you need to do these things. So I actually start… Or attempt to start from this place of humility. And I did hear, we, which was saying, hey, this is not about the rules of voice, with the rules of guiding your story, or whatnot. I have some information and what I think is knowledge. I hope to give it to you. So, starting from that place, and then even though I care deeply about what I’m teaching, I don’t want it to feel so self serious that it’s boring. I’m not giving a place for people to come into it. And I also found, as many of you saw here at Writing Excuses, like, examples. You can explain, hey, maybe think about voice in this particular way. And for me, I’m also a visual learner, someone, if you demonstrate the thing, I am attempting to learn, it helps me a thousand times more than just saying do this. So I’ve learned over the years that examples are so, so helpful. I have a lecture I’ve taught multiple times on how to write compelling dialogue, and we have a whole section in which to demonstrate how to use… How to actually utilize some of the rules, what it is is, I construct dialogue about the class I’m in in real time. And then show them, and then we create an argument and we show how it goes back and forth and just watching people open up because… It’s a little bit of improv, so, of course, especially the little chaos goblins in the room are like, I’m going to say all sorts of wild things…
[Chuckles]
[Mark] And you use that to sort of guide people through this is how you create a scene. Oh, we just noticed it got confusing. Who’s speaking this time? How do you write people speaking over each other, because that happens in real time in real life? So, yeah, that’s how I found my way into teaching.
[Marshall] Yeah, I’ve found that with the age group that I teach asking them early on to write about themselves, I get them… One, I get to see how the writing is, because I love writing, but I like sharing stories, so if I can connect with them on anything, like, just the posters in my room… I have a bunch of geeky Star Wars and Marvel posters on my wall, and the kids are like, oh, what do you think of this? That’s… I find that that is the best way to help those kids who really would rather not be there, there. It’s not necessarily about the grade or about what I teaching, although I think what I’m teaching is awesome. I think just getting them to buy-in is a huge part of it, especially when you’re teaching 15, 16-year-olds who are just like, “Bro, this guy?” You know what I mean? And I love what you said about dialogue, too, like, listening to kids talk to each other and making them talk? It’s a really kind of fun way to… When I go back to the page, if I’m writing a teenager or something, like, that, like, this is what they would focus on, this is what they would… How they would communicate their day to there buddy. You know what I mean? They wouldn’t share with me. But I’m just listening.
[Erin] Yeah. Like, the more of humanity you get to know, the better you can portray it on the page in some ways. And, like, how often do many of us, like, speak to kids of all ages? Like, you might have your own kids and speak to them, but a lot of times, you don’t have necessarily an opportunity and, like, to really see folks in an environment where, while you do have some power over them, they sort of are able to fly free, and you can just observe the flock of wild teen birds as they go around [garbled]
[chuckles]
[Erin] That sounds bad. As they go around, and do their thing.
[I like garbled though. Yeah, that’s good. Garbled]
[Erin] There you go. We are going to now take a break for our thing of the week.
[Erin] I have the thing of the week, so, just I’m going to keep, like, just throwing the mic to myself. And the book that I want to call out, which… Whose name I am going to forget… No. Is All This and More by Peng Shepherd. And one of the reasons I’m especially excited to talk about this book is that Peng was actually an instructor here on the cruise a couple of years ago, working, I believe, on this novel. And so it’s just very meta-. Like, and I am living in the meta-cruise moment of it all. But this is a very cool book for me specifically… I mean, it wasn’t written for me, but it was written for me because it is a choose-your-own-adventure novel. And the actual conceit of the book is that someone goes on a show where they’re able to change parts of their life based on, like, what the show decides. So they get to, like, decide if they want to blow up their marriage or choose a different job. And at the end of the chapter, it actually gives you the opportunity to flip to whatever chapter you want. So if you want them to blow up their marriage, flip to chapter 8. If you want them to do a new job, flip to chapter 10. And it’s a really interesting way of going through a book that takes a novel and a game and puts them all in one. So, definitely check it out. All This and More by Peng.
[Erin] And we’re back. We are still on the cruise, still moving, still talking about teaching at all levels. And something else that I love that you were saying, Mark, about figuring out how to, like, convey things is using really good examples and using tactile materials. Do you find, because, I know you do school visits, like, you’re not there for very long, like, you’re having to, like, get in, get out, engage and go. And, like, is there a difference between that and, like, what I think Marshall and I do, where we’re teaching the same folks for, like, years and years and years?
[Mark] Oh, yeah. Absolutely. My teaching technique and speaking technique is different for a workshop or a retreat than it is for a school visit. Generally, in kid lit, the school is actually how you’re going to meet your readers. You might get lucky to be at a book festival that is geared towards young adults or middle grade readers, but the majority of the time I am meeting my readers, it is through school visits. So you’re doing a presentation that is as long as a class period. Sometimes you’re lucky, you get, like, the auditorium style where you therefore, like, an hour or two. So in those, I tend to be much punchier. I am trying to make grand big points. I’m not delving into, like, the minutia. And a lot of times, you’re meeting kids who may have an interest in writing, or may have an interest in reading, but you’re probably going to meet a few kids who are also deeply apathetic about it. Whereas when you’re at a retreat, when you beat… Teaching a workshop, these are people who have already opted in. So they’re here for that. So I tell 8000 more jokes. I think one of the best compliments I ever got was doing a school visit, and afterwards, the teacher came up to me and was like, “I’ve just never seen my students that energized. You’re like their weird gay uncle.” And I was like, “Yes!”
[Chuckles]
[Mark] That’s the energy I want. And so I’m coming into these spaces, one, to as I said earlier to demonstrate that I have not had to edit who I am or edit my personality to be a professional creative person. And I’m not… In those instances, I’m not thinking I want to inspire this person to be a writer. I just want to inspire them to do the thing that they want. So I’m often surprised how often I get questions that have nothing to do with writing at all. Is to maybe someone who wants to do something creative, but the thinking of a completely different field. So then the questions tend to be more about, like, motivation, how do you keep doing this? Did you have parents who supported your creative endeavors? How did you get to the point that you are? What did you study in college? Those sort of questions. So I think the biggest advice I give as well to other people who are joining the kid lit field is you have to be flexible. You cannot go into any of these settings, especially the ones where you’re there for one hour max and assume that this is how it’s going to go, everything is going to go how I want. Also, children will say something to rip your soul out of your body and then move on, because it’s Tuesday.
[Yup]
[Mark] So you also have to be… I mean, don’t be afraid… You should be very afraid! But don’t be afraid of them, like, they’re going to ask the questions, especially if they feel safe. And these questions sometimes might be wild, you might have to say, “Mind your own business.” But I want to foster that sense as well of, like, yes, maybe I’m only here for an hour, but I want this hour to be as impactful as possible.
[Erin] I love what you said about safety there. It makes me think about, so, before I started teaching college, I actually did, like, public writing workshops that you can do in libraries or in, actually, like, places where folks are living after coming out of, like, prison and are, like, trying to get back on their feet and they have writing classes as a creative outlet. And there’s a book called Writing Alone And with Others, which was developed for prison writing workshops that we used their methodology. In the big thing there is, like, in a prison, you, like, depending on what it is, because our system is no bueno and we’re all about punitive, people, like, can’t actually keep pen, paper, stuff with them. So you have to do the writing exercise at the time, like, you basically walk in and you’re like, here. I’m going to give you, like, a few images, and, like, an idea, and one prompt, and, like, you’re just going to go. And then everyone shares their writing that they just wrote. And it’s really hard. Because it is terrifying to share writing when you have a long time to write it. And if you just found out about it five seconds ago, it’s really hard. And one of the big principles that we talk about in that group is that we’re going to make this… This is going to be a space about safe creative expression. Not about perfection. It is… We often use the analogy of, like, having a baby. If somebody has just had a baby, you say what a sweet baby. Many babies look like aliens, but…
[Chuckles]
[Erin] Just after birth is not a time to tell the parent, “Your alien looking child is freaking me out.” You have to say, “What a sweet baby. I love its wide eyes.” or whatever thing you can come up with that seems affirming. What I love about that experience is that, like, it has helped me to really see the good in everyone’s writing and to create, like, a safe creative space for all of our lovely ugly alien babies.
[Mark] The safety thing, I think, is so important when it comes to teaching. Like, they’re not going to open up, they’re not going to create or create what they… If they don’t feel like, if you read it, you’ll betray them in some way. You know what I mean? So I really try to foster, like, the most… The safest space I can for students so that they can actually just express themselves and write something and have fun while they’re at school.
[Marshall] I love that you said that as well. I’m very lucky also that I’m one of the few authors whose been able to do visits and teaching at juvenile delinquent facilities, and the biggest thing I run up into in those environments is adults who don’t take the kids seriously at all. So in those spaces, it’s… Someone starts talking about their writing and you treat them like a peer, on your level. So they start telling you about, like, oh, I have this story or whatever, and they’re used to people dismissing it or assuming they’re not going to have a future to tell that. So what I do always is, like, well, why do you want to write that? Why is it that thing? And ask them, like, essentially… They don’t see them as craft questions, but I’m asking them craft questions to show them I am interested in the thing you’re doing and I take it seriously. So, that’s something I think in any situation, but particularly in those situations where the kids actually aren’t safe.
[Erin] Yeah. I’m, like, looking for things… The thing is there is beauty to be found in all writing. And I think it’s really exciting to see if somebody is really pouring their heart out. I think something else that can be hard, depending on the environment, is when people put a lot of themselves on the page, like, a lot, and you realize… You can tell sometimes, when this is someone’s first opportunity to work through something, and, like, it is often just as messy as a therapy session on the page, and you are trying to react to it both as a human being, but also like… Your purpose at that point is to be affirming, but also to actually treat it as writing and not to treat it, I find, as therapy. To be like, okay, a lot happened in that piece. Like what I really thought was interesting was, like, how you kept referencing, like, the color blue. Like, that was really, like… Why did you… Why did that happen question because then it takes the person into talking about craft, and it allows them, I think, a chance to process at their own pace as opposed to being, like, oh, my gosh, did that really happen to you? One thing we do in this, in these settings, is we’ll say you actually are not allowed to act as if it is about the person’s life. You should always pretend that they wrote it about somebody else, because otherwise it derails the conversation into the person, and not into the prose that they put on the page.
[Mark] Yeah, I know, and I… One of the first creative writing assignments I give my student, because I’m co-teaching sort of the class with another colleague and we had them, like, recall a memory from when they were younger. And that kind of platform… Really, they hit the page with it. And so sometimes… Whenever I was talking to them and giving them feedback, I always made a point of saying, oh, the character did this, the character did this, or what do you think of that about this… And one of the students said, well, it didn’t happen that way. And I said, yeah, but we’re also writing fiction. So I know this is based on a memory you have, but it can be… It’s fiction. I don’t know the story. So…
[Erin] And I think the things that happen… I think one of the nice things about teaching, at all levels, is that some of the things that we don’t talk about in writing, like, as we get older, some of the things that we like take for granted, like how much of ourselves is in our writing, become much more clear… Become clearer when people are newer to it, and so they can’t hide it as well in some ways. And so some of the things that you see when you teach are things that you’re like, wow, I should remember that from my own writing. Like, I should remember to think about how much of myself and my bringing to this writing experience. Or, wow, am I using… In my thinking broadly enough about dialogue? Or am I thinking about how to make things exciting in a way that aren’t just the ways I’ve been taught, but the things that work for the story? And we’re starting to run out of time.
[Erin] But before we get to the homework, which feels very apropos…
[Right]
[Erin] For the topic that we’re having, I’m wondering if you each have, like, one sort of piece of advice you would give if somebody is really interested in thinking about getting into teaching?
[Marshall] Think about a tea… No, in…
[Erin] I love the facial expressions that are happening.
[Marshall] That question’s amazing. I think… I would go… I would suggest, think about a teacher that you had that created a safe space, that challenged you, that you remember, and put yourself in their place. Like, is that something that you want to do for other young folks? Maybe they reached you at a time where you really needed that teacher and that class and that time. You know what I mean?
[Mark] My thinking was very similar, along those lines. It was a moment where not only you were inspired by the teacher, but they did something that had you then writing and it didn’t feel like homework. Because, to me, there were the moments that now I look back and I was like, you gave me more to write, and I wasn’t even… I was doing it, but it didn’t feel like work. And those, to me, are like the transformative experiences… Is why, at that age, when I could’ve been doing 20 other different things, did I choose to write more or write a different assignment or read this book? Why was it that thing and what was it that that teacher or librarian or educator did to get me to forget that I’m in school. Like, that’s… And so, if you can imagine that. So, yeah, if you have that empathy or understanding, like, what was it that helped you get past that point?
[Yeah]
[Erin] And I would say for me, like, it is be enthusiastic about the subject matter, about the people your teaching. If you teach enough, you will have a day in which you are tired and you are not at your best. But, even so, I think, the enthusiasm really comes through. If you want the person to… When you want someone to learn, that really, I think, comes through. Even if you’re tired, even if you’re hangry. Like, that wanting someone to learn is what’s important because it means you’re able to be flexible, and you’re thinking about the things that you brought with you from people who wanted you to learn and who were successful in getting you there.
[Mark] And they know… They know if you’re excited about it. They know that you’re passionate about it. And even if they might not be, they’ll get there with you. Because they know you’re stoked about it. So, is it homework time? [Garbled you looked like you were?] about to say one more thing.
[Mark] So, the homework is very similar to what we kind of just talked about, but I want you to think, if you’re even kind of considering teaching, your homework is to think of something that you’re very passionate about. It doesn’t have to be writing, it could be knitting, it could be whatever. And create a lesson in your head or write it down that would work for you, your younger self.
[Erin] This has been Writing Excuses. You’re out of excuses. Now go write.